This an interview between my daughter Sabrina and myself. She shares many of the lessons she learned about how music and entrepreneurship can work together using music to earn a profit and enhance society and ones community.
Sabrina also shares lessons from a Graduate school project that embrace the fundamental steps around designing any business. A must listen for the aspiring entrepreneurial.
[inaudible] . Hey everyone out there. This is Mike graver with sensible solutions or the sentence , a solution show where we bring sensible solutions to everyday business in life. Yeah . I would like to first kick off the second season of upcoming interviews and I'd like to introduce the host who I thought would be the ideal person to launch the second series. For those of you who listened to the various interviews I did with Maggie in the first season, brilliant breakthroughs for the spot business owners. This is season number two is going to be a combination of different professionals in their own right where I'll be asking them questions about business, about their own industry or own lessons that they've learned through building their businesses that we can share with you the listeners, but today I'm going to talk a little bit more about the book parenting that makes sense that I coauthored with my daughter and those who listened to the first series. I've talked to quite a bit about the book and about lessons that we as a family and her and I hit. We're , I wanted to be able to share with other people and I'm in the launch of the second edition. I thought it would only be prudent to have her on the show and an excited to be able to share her and her wisdom with all of you out there. So kind of recapping on parenting that makes sense. And going through the process of teaching kids how to become financially savvy and through goal setting , through developing a solid money management plan early on, going back to the spending, saving and sharing and making sure that kids at an early age , I think five is a good time to start learning about money. They're old enough that they can count somewhat . They're old enough that they now know what they want and we'll often go after maybe a candy bar, it could be other toys, et cetera, but they are old enough that if you explain to them the lessons around how to manage money, that they get a dollar and actually can spend the whole dollar, they should take a portion of it and apply it to sharing or tithing. They should take a portion of it and apply it. Two words , saving for the future, which may be six months, could be a year, it could be longer depending on the child and the agent, the lessons that you, the parents out there want to teach them. And then of course spending because if [inaudible] yep . A lot of money and you never spend it , you never celebrate your wins in life, it's not a whole lot of fun. So making sure that there is an even combination of the three. And again, one of the things that we kind of started with Sabrina as an eight year old when she came back to school, frustrated one day because she's watched one of her classmates spend a lot of money on candy and found that it was quite wasteful and decided to teach other kids how to be competitively savvy. So they would end up [inaudible] with good solid financial foundation as an adult in that, as her words, I believe were at the time dad. So my, my clip friend to classmates, the one that broke like a lot of your clients off there. And at that point she then started Jordan and beyond, which was a cool business and went to work at teaching. No , only the kids but their parents how to properly manage money. Yeah . [inaudible] cool. I was born and the book concluded with her going off to college and taking a lot of the lessons that she learned in the book and bringing them to the college world and allowed her to get scholarships, get grants which made studying the Ohio state a lot more affordable than it would have been otherwise. And Mmm . She was then able to take a lab though , lessons that she learned as a young entrepreneur, as a young music student and going through music school again, find ways to share her lessons, share her experiences with the world, both through music, through business. And as I found to kind of interesting as I will quickly pass the conversation back to her, how he started out learning Oh, business and entrepreneurism and then our entrepreneurship and then went the way of musician and became an amazing musician in her own right. And through grad school, kind of brought her back into the music realm. But yeah, first book kind of left off with, against Sabrina going off to college. And the second book kind of takes her through the college life and ends with her finishing college. And at that point I would not like to open a conversation up to Sabrina and Sabrina. What are some lessons that you've own through your own journey and if you'd like to share with listeners. Sure. So are you meeting in response to grad school? I'm assuming? Yeah. And how kind of business, learning about business and money management as a yeah . At a young age, goal setting, et cetera. How , what to help you Excel, not only in undergrad but also in grad school. Yeah, absolutely. That the biggest thing too is that the lessons that I learned growing up and with working with children and beyond , um, and it was directly applied, like you said, to my undergrad and my grad career, but more so it was used as a way to , um , helped me kind of discover new lessons when I was in grad school. And then when I was in my undergrad as well , um, and in a way that I think it might have been, it might've been a bit trickier too , kind of find those lessons. But I definitely learned a lot in my six years of post secondary schooling. So quite a bit of time. But , um , I could together five main lessons that I've learned that I learned while I was in grad school. Mostly. Obviously a lot of it I learned while I was in my undergrad as well. Grad school is such a specific, at a specified degree , um, that it really taught me a lot. So , um , [inaudible]Speaker 2:
like you said, I, I went to uh , Ohio state university for my undergraduate degree. I got my degree in music performance and when I graduated, realized that although I loved performing and music sick was such a big part of me, I really wanted to be able to make a difference with it. And the same way that I really wanted to make a difference as a kid with money. I wanted to pursue ways to kind of use that will and that desire to help other people while also using music. So I attended the university of South Carolina in Columbia, South Carolina , um , and was the first person ever to receive a master's in music and community partnership. So it's a much more specific degree, working a lot with business, working a lot with community engagement. Um, and I mean I had a great time. So I guess let's kind of go through some of those big lessons that I learned. So , um , number one, one of the biggest and most important things that I learned was that detailed thinking and big picture thinking are absolutely essential. And I think , um, this kind of goes with saving, spending and sharing as well. Um, when I was in grad school, I kind of had, I've had all these dreams of all these things I wanted to achieve. Um, and that kind of big picture, thinking of what I wanted to get out of my degree, what I want to get out of my life and what I wanted to do to help other people was really important. But at the same time, you have to be able to harness that detailed thinking as well. Being able to look at all those small minute factors that , uh , really can impact , um , for me impact my own life, but also impact lives of other people and what I was doing. So that was one really big one. Um, and , and that kind of led to a lot of my successes when I was in school of just realizing that it's [inaudible] incredibly important to be a dreamer, but it is also incredibly important to be a technician and know how to fix problems. So that was number one. Um , number two, and this was something that was really important to me , uh, as someone who is studying music, which as people say is not a very [inaudible] profitable career , um, was how important it was to find what I was passionate about and follow that. And I know that's kind of a cliche about, you know, if you know what you love to do, then you never feel like you're working. But it really, I really did think, I did feel that while I was in school, I saw that I was able to , um, I was able to still, Hmm , make money and accomplish some of my goals, but I could also, you know, I could also start a business, which I think we might talk about later. Um, I could also , um , work with other people. I was financially secure. Um, I was able to both spend my own money and still donate money and all of that while studying music and studying how music other people. Um , and because of that, I , when I was, especially when I was in school, but now even, I really feel like I am not working per se. Um , I'm getting, I'm experiencing. Um , and I think that's really, really important. Um, so many people kind of live that day job life. And , um, as someone who has experienced that to an extent, like it can be very difficult and a reminder of what my passion is, has really helped. Mmm . The third one I had was to openly seek opportunity. Um , and I'm trying to think of how I can relate this back to the money concept as well. But I guess the biggest thing that I learned was that there is, unless [inaudible] opportunity out there , um , whether it is to start a program, whether it is to , um , even purchase something really large to buy a house too , pay off your student loans, like the opportunities to be successful are out there and it's up to us to really go out and find them. Um, I think there's kind of the stigma of depending on where you go and who you know, the doors will open. Um , and I chose to move to a small town in the middle of the American South and I've found that the opportunities are plentiful because I really went out of my way to create those opportunities. Um, something that someone actually told me, which I think is really important. Um, especially in relation to money. Um , this is someone who founded his own social impact program through music, but ha is incredibly knowledgeable with fundraising and development. So I know when he created his organization, he fund raised I think $400,000 to begin to the program, which is almost [inaudible] . It's unheard of in the world of beginning music programs. He told me to always ask people who are smarter than you for advice, never asked them for money. And I thought that was really interesting. And so I've kind of used that as, as one of my mottos . Um, going forward to always ask people for advice. So in addition to that, like if I was still a student, maybe that means going to other professors and asking for their advice on how to be more successful as an adult. Maybe it means going to someone who is really successful with their business and sitting down with them and just picking their brain and saying, you know, what is it that you did that made you so successful? And what can I do to make myself that successful? Um, and so that in addition to the opportunities has really proved to be very fruitful for me. Um, and then the last one, which is obviously very cheesy but is really important, is just the idea of never giving up. Um, when I was a junior in college and going through this, this crisis of, Oh my goodness, I went to music school, not going to have a job. I'm going to die , died penniless,Speaker 1:
[inaudible] box the rest of my life. Um , I, and instead tried to really think positively and kind of reframe, you know, what was it that I loved out of music and what was it that I was still needing from a performance track? And then from that, be able to being able to kind of reframe my life structure, which has really led me to where I am now. And obviously much happier and with much more opportunity. And so because I [inaudible] they didn't give up. And because I'm an I , I never give up. Um , because I'm constantly seeking those opportunities. I constantly am working as hard as I can to accomplish my goals. Um, whether it is saving to pay off my student loans, I have a plan right now to get that done in two years or whether it is something as you start or not as little, as big as starting my own program or as little as planning a one day concert. Mmm . Always making sure to persevere. So those are some pretty big. Um, they're pretty big lessons that I learned throughout my undergraduate degree and mostly through my graduate degree. Very nice. Yeah. I remember actually back in your junior, your win , I think your professor you're sharing with me one day when you guys were practicing for an audition coming up, how in music school, every year you have to re audition for your seats, etc . And one of your classmates was playing a piece that you had played before and you're giving her advice on how to play her audition piece better. I remember the professor walking up to you please. As bright as the way I heard it. Anyway, I was, she walked up to you and kind of so reminded you, Sabrina, you two are auditioning for the same seat. Are you sure you really want to be giving her advice on how to play the piece better when you looked at her and smiled and said something to the fact of, well, the only way I figured , the only way she's going to beat me as if she outworks me and if she does and she deserves a seat. And how impressed your professor was? I think actually you grow up. One of the coolest things was seeing your ongoing work ethic that you not only worked hard, but you always had a smile on your face. You'd walk into a room back . One of my favorites, right ? [inaudible] Mmm . Favorite phrases are, everyone will light up a room. The only question is do you light up the room when you enter the room or when you leave the room? You certainly always let it , the room when you enter the room and through networking and aye . [inaudible] . One of the things that you share with me about grad school and I've kind of watched the process and through my own building breeze businesses, et cetera , through my own journey, I have found that Oh , no matter, the more successful a person is, the more willing they are to share what they know. And if you talk to them, you can learn so much through networking and through going to that person where lab times as individuals we will say, wow, that person is successful. They know so much more than I have . Why would they tell me, well why wouldn't they? The are successful because someone who looks taught for them and for the most part they know that, that I willing to share as well. Yeah . And I loved how you would share stories of these different lessons you learn from people even as a young child, but certainly as a grad student to some of the experiences you were able to , um , partake in that I think helped form the entrepreneurial entrepreneur ideas, concepts that you came up with, even with one project that you did in grad school. And I'll let you share more about that. But I was really impressed on how yes, you were there to have fun. You are there to learn, you're there to do other things that a student does, but you never lost sight of the goal. You always found ways to learn from others around you, learn from your teachers, learn through your own practice, et cetera , and then how to share that with them. People around you essence. Sure. What the world, which is certainly one of the things I've always been very proud of you about. So what would you say, especially with music and entrepreneurism, because that's kind of a new people. One of my least favorite phrases is the dying artists or starving artists. And I think people at times look at music, look at art. [inaudible] more of a negative than a positive approach, whereas it can help enhance the world. It can help enhance without art, without music, without that side of our life. Man, I can imagine. It'd be like it took me dough , that's for sure. And if a person has the proper tools, the proper resources, they can take [inaudible] their art or they can take the music and only use it to improve those around them to create amazing, beautiful music, art , et cetera . But they can also earn a very good living at the same time. What are some things that you would like to wear or is there anything that you'd like to share kind of along that line of lessons that you may have learned through your program?Speaker 2:
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so you talked , uh , mentioned this a little bit about how you kind of hate that starving artists image that is given off. Um, and it is something that plenty of people , uh, there's this preconceived notion about music. And I mean, especially as a grad student, you know, when I would be working on the side to pay for school, I would have people ask me all the time of, Oh, well, what are you, what are you going to do with your life? Um, so that is, that's definitely something that I heard constantly. So , um , something that is really interesting about music , um, or rather a couple things is truly the impact that music can have on you . Other people that I think is both recognized and also inheritance maybe. So I have done considerable research into the effects of alternative music education. I've taught , I'm going to talk about this a little bit later with the program . I actually started when I was grad school. Mmm . But I've also done research into the effects of music in general on all people. Now obviously a lot of it yeah , can be circumstantial, but certain things have been , uh , proven for example. Um, the collaborative aspect of music, the teamwork that is involved with , um, with one person playing with a group of people that can lead to greater social skills helps with the ability to communicate with other people, especially helps with young children. That's part of the reason that working with kids is definitely like my passion project. Um, so many other things. There are, okay . Oh my goodness. What's the word? There are, there are so many. Um, I'll just say things. I guess there's so many things that between like , um, academia and music, how it can really foster intellectual growth. Uh , everything thing from like helping with language, helping with memory, helping with uh, right and left brain learning I know is something that I've saw a lot in the research I did. So the effect of music on people is so important. So that was, that's kind of one thing I want to talk about. Like why music itself is very important as far as the entrepreneurial side of it. Of course. Um, there is a growing idea in the music community called the 21st century musician and it's kind of this idea that the world we live in today frankly doesn't really care about orchestra concert and um, string quartets and classical music like, Oh , sorry . They just , they just don't care. So instead, how can we as musicians, Martin , look at ourselves too [inaudible] greater community in order to have, in order to get listeners in order to get followers and supporters. So truly if you think about it, musicians are some of the first and frankly greatest entrepreneurs because they're able to, to take something that is really important to them, something they're really passionate about and turn that into a successful business model. And so when I was in grad school, I studied with , um , one of the foremost experts in music entrepreneurship. That's partially what my degree is in community partnership. I ended up taking I believe, four or five classes regarding music entrepreneurship because I know how important it is to be successful business person in addition to a successful musician. Um , especially in today's day and age. So , um, aye . Mmm . I'm trying to think of some of the main lessons that I learned cause I did talk about some of them before and what I learned from grad school. Mmm . But I think a lot of it was just how important it is to think outside of the box. And I know that's another cliche that people talk about. Oh well if you just think outside of the box, then you'll be more successful. Or if you think outside of the circle or the Venn diagram or whatever it is that day, but really how important that is for musicians. So I guess as an example, that's South Carolina. We had a competition every single year. Um, we, well we had several competitions but obviously we had our top performer competition that played with the orchestra. We also , Oh my goodness, I'm sorry, my dog is squeaking a toy that she found something . Well , um, we also have a, an entrepreneurship competition that is involved. Mmm . Creating performances that art engaging to the community, which might seem really simple but there's so much involved with it. There's market research which obviously is really important in the entrepreneurial fields. There is , um, there is, you know, creating a business model. There is budgeting involved, there is the actual flushing out of the plan itself and all of those details I talked about before the large scale details and that the smaller details there , all those details and need to put together there are creating contracts , um , with vendors with basis . There is um, or scheduling rehearsals. So having to be good at time management and organization, all of these things that are involved with something. As I, as I said before, something as simple a scheduling or creating a concert. So for example , um, I was a finalist in this competition last year and for my concert I created , uh , a concert called chamber bruises . And so what I was researching was whether or maybe not whether , but I was researching the reason why millennials just don't care about classical music. Um , as a millennial myself, I mean, I obviously had grown up in it, and so I loved it. I thought it was great. I could sit and listen to Beethoven for hours if I wanted to, but I knew that the typical millennial [inaudible] probably didn't want to do that. So instead I create surveys. I did one on one interviews, I did focus groups, and I asked them why they just didn't care about classical music. And through all of this research, I got you. No , it's too expensive. It's boring. The music doesn't excite me. I feel no connection. There's no technology. You know, all of these things that they were drawing a blank with. And so I created a concert where the entire concert itself was in a, it was actually a brewery is about a block and half away from my campus. Um, we all wore just dress clothes. None of us wore the fancy concert black. It was [inaudible] group of musicians. Myself, I'm a flute player, a percussionist, a saxophone player, a French horn player and a pianist. And we played music where the youngest composer, I'm sorry, the oldest composer was born in 1965. The youngest composer was like 1996 I believe. So we had this huge array of new music, all of it really engaging. A lot of it sounded like film music in order to get the youth, I shouldn't say the youth cause I have one, but in order to get people engaged, we um, or rather I went to the brewery a week before, created a whole bunch of beer pairings. So every single piece had a specific beer that was paired to it. In addition to that, every single piece had a card that accompanied it. That said, okay, so this is the beer pairing. This is the piece itself. Here's some information about the beer, here's some information about the piece [inaudible] some information about why I chose this pairing. And then as a result, my um, audience was able to, you know, enjoy something that they knew they understood like beer. Um, and from that they were, and then because of that, they could make an a , they could better understand the music. We also had these boards are set up like chalkboards where we ask them questions like, how does this make you feel? Uh , what images do you see? What stories do you want to tell? That kind of thing in order to get them really engaged. So those were all of the kind of entrepreneurial ideas that had to go behind the creation of [inaudible] one concert, obviously that includes the social media marketing and include outside marketing. I created posters, I did lots of , um , graphic design , um , in order to kind of create my ideal concert. And so it just kind of goes to show, you know, how important entrepreneurship is to musicians. Um, and then with that, like how we as musicians are able to take those entrepreneurial business ideas and okay . Create something beautiful with it. Mmm . Yeah. Basically I think that's , that's, that's probably a good place to add there . Nice. Wow. But I don't know other people heard all the, I could do a whole podcast alone just on probably the six or seven different business lessons that you went through and discovered in doing that type of market research demographic, knowing who your customer is, knowing how to take [inaudible] a product in your case music tailored to the taste of the individual and user in a way that they will understand in their own right versus trying to force him to understand it .Speaker 1:
Teammanship we worked as a team. You had to pull different people in different music, John dura together in a way that would fit that particular goal. I mean, all the things that go on to making ah , successful business, you nailed it in that process. Again, you nailed it. I guess that's the best. It's all that really needs to be said is there are a lot of nuggets in there. So I highly recommend people listening, go back through and listen to the different pieces that could be related back to your own business or your own projects that you're working on. Because that was taking an idea, bringing it to the product level, bringing it to the market and then taking it all the way home through the concert, which I was lucky enough to be, to listen to and watch. Well I can say is it was amazing. Once again, always surprise me with [inaudible] ways that you take these ideas, these concepts and bring them, bring them to market, bring them to flirtation. [inaudible] we only have a few minutes left, but in that, and you touched on the contest that you, while you had the music contest with Justin , took second in the country. I believe it was in that competition in my school. Right. But then you also had the comp , the one that you Mmm . Oh yes. The , the business. The business one, yeah . Yes. And how you had to put together the nonprofit that you were working on and how you took a second to get into country in that project. Which, or a college student I thought was pretty cool because you're going up pretty heavy hitters. Would you like to share real quick with the remaining time we have left for the listeners a little bit about find your beats and about that process and what you learned from that? Yeah, so, okay, so one of the reasons I spoke about, you know, the incredible , um , faculty that I worked with while I was here are the experts and music entrepreneurship and obviously the fact that it was the only school that I knew of that offered the degree. Um , but one of the, actually the biggest reasons why I chose to go to school in Columbia, South Carolina , um , as a Northern girl, the odds are never live in the South . I am now. Mmm . Aye . Had a meeting with that person I had spoken to before. And I said, my goal is to create a social impact program for under-resourced kids. Can I do that here? And he looked at me like dead in the eyes and said, we have nothing like that here. Columbia really meets that. And so my first semester , um , I took a course in music entrepreneurship, which is where I learned a lot of these ideas. Um, and instead of kind of coming up with a generic idea that I could, you know , get a good grade, kind of move on from it, I decided if I'm going to put the work into this, I'm going to actuallySpeaker 2:
create something that I want to work on and that is needed. So I again, doing those same things that we talked about before, I did some research into where the , what the need was. I did research into what the community could afford. That was a really big thing. I spoke with the Dean, I spoke with other community leaders, I spoke with professors from other areas. The Dean of the honors college, like I went through to everybody I could talk to and I said, what do you think about this idea? Do you think it would be successful? And then from there , um, I had to apply for grants , um, and I received one through the university and then I had to find a partner. So at this point, you know, I'm one of the most underrated things. I probably should've mentioned this before and lessons I learned, but one of the most underrated things that I think business leaders don't want to think about is the importance of partnership. And so aye went onto the community and I S and I thought, okay , so I need a place to host an afterschool program. I need transportation, I need resources. And above all I need students. What can I do? So I thought about going to schools, I thought about going to churches. I , I thought about like any local group that I could work with. And so I ended up being very lucky and working with this group name is [inaudible] ministries. They are an afterschool program for other resource children in Columbia, South Carolina. And I said, I have an idea. I want to teach music and I want to use buckets. They kind of stared at me like I was crazy buckets, but we have musical instruments. They didn't . But like, you know why? Why don't we teach them violin? Why don't we teach them flute? What about, you know, why, why buckets and , um, my uh, teacher that I had worked with, that expert that I'd worked with when I told them, you know, what about, what about those things about those instruments? He looked at me and he said, that is so overdone. What else can you do? So I thought, all right , what else can I do? And so , um, my boyfriend is a serious classical percussionist , um, and he's been playing classical percussion since he was thank you. Eight, something like that. And so he has always been involved with [inaudible] classical, which as an instrument group is one of the most expensive instrument groups. Um, yeah , actually just came back from a week long conference in Indianapolis or I think he had to spend something like $400 just on sticks. So it's an incredibly expensive , um, genre, but it did like, not only that, but all of them , mr mints are that expensive. I have a professional level flute . It was , um , I don't even want to say it was whole , like horribly expensive. And so I thought, well in percussion in these countries like Trinidad and Tobago where they play steel drums and certain percussion pieces, they can play sounds, they can play anything. You could play a table and that would be considered profession . In fact, I've seen it. It's a piece zipper forms . You can play yourself if you want it, if you want it to . And so I kind of wanted to take this idea of music can be everywhereSpeaker 1:
kind of like if ,Speaker 2:
yeah, exactly. Well, and so I also was looking at inspirations like blue man group, like um, stop . Um , and , and kind of looking at that and seeing how they didn't have programs for youth . So I stole it kind of, I borrowed it. Um, and there . Exactly. Um, and then from there I , um , I created this project called find your beat is an afterschool education program for under-resourced children using buckets and other recycled objects to create music. So I think, and I, when I presented this at this competition that you were talking about before , um, they were flabbergasted because I think all in all, I bought 25 buckets and 20 pairs of sticks and , uh, a 12 pack of [inaudible] soda bottles , um, rice and pieces of wood. Like I went to Lowe's and I said, cut me pieces of wood. Mmm . And I think in total it costs $128. Wow . So for $128, I was able to, Phil or I was able to create a program. Um, and then like I said, I applied for grants, I got the school to pay for it. And then I found my community partner , um , with his equal ministries and then they provided their wonderful students. And then throughout my master's , we, myself, my boyfriend and the other , um , volunteers that we, we gathered , um, went anywhere between one and five days a week to work with these kids , um, which cumulated in a performance at a Christmas parade holiday parade , excuse me. Um, and was like one of the most inspirational things that I've ever seen. So that's a little bit about that program. Um, and again, the same thing with the concert. Like there were so many business two skills that I learned as a result of creating this, but that I also needed to implement in order for it to be successful. Um, yeah.Speaker 1:
Wow. And just to remind the listeners in case if they miss the small part that you did all of that while practicing probably 20 hours a week and maintaining a full load in grad school.Speaker 2:
Yes . Yes. Like I said, strong work ethic. Yeah . Never give up. Right?Speaker 1:
Yes. In fact, I was listening to a gentleman on the way into the office this morning who was talking about preparing for an event and he reminded the people that opportunity often shows up in the promo overalls and his quad work. Yeah. We can do anything we want to like as long as we're willing to work hard and find those around who have the skill sets that we need to borrow and that can help the process.Speaker 2:
I once heard that success is 600 like 60% hard work and 40% being in the right place at the right time and I 100% agree with that. Now granted, I think your work can lead you to being in the right place at the right time, but that kind of goes again with seeking out those opportunities if they exist or rather they do exist. So just going and finding them.Speaker 1:
Yeah , so true. And they're working on, like we talked about earlier, so many people are willing to share. If I've only asked , absolutely have to ask. Wonderful. As kind of see, we could go on and on and there's probably two or three other podcasts, just the material that we share today, but in the sake of time and being able to get good start and the process again, sharing the second edition of parenting that makes sense and sharing your own journey and kind of opening up to what these various podcasts will have to offer. I'm sure we'll be doing another two or three or four before we really run out of things to talk about the share . I like to spend one podcast alone just on the find your beat concept because I love the idea re-purposing things around the house and using it to make music, using it to what better way to [inaudible] a bunch of kids together. Being productive in music with sticks buckets versus hitting each other with them. When I was a kid we took average Canlives and took sticks and made foods out of the state and use the lids as shields. Yeah , it was fun but certainly it didn't lead to our future music career, that's for sure. Yeah , absolutely . Perhaps. But anyway, thank you again Sabrina for taking the time. I your busy schedule to share some insights that you learned along the way and we will continue to reach out and share the information with you all as the well comes to flourishion. Hopefully within next month or two it will be done and ready to launch and at that time we'll be leaning on all of your help to help [inaudible] the book in the hands of people that can benefit from it. Yes . And we get the, these types of lessons in the hands of kids and the parents obviously, but the kids, amazing things can only come from that. So at that, I would like to, again, thank you and just for , um , those of you , if you'd like to listen to, Sabrina had wrote a lot of really cool pieces in her own right. They go to micro [inaudible] [inaudible] like in this micro biz core [inaudible] . I have a page on that site that has a bunch of different pieces that Sabrina wrote, so it'd be like to check it out or learn more about her own story there. It's there too, as well as other podcast , etc . But I invite you all to go check that out. And again, thank everyone for listening and the core to talking with you soon.